“Would You Like Guys With That?” tonight at UTD

Youth in revolt

In his theater piece, Would You Like Guys With That, John Michael Colgin’s main character (himself, really) is a snobby kid, the product of private-schooling and a sense of entitlement; he becomes even more judgmental when he attends college in Stillwater, Okla. But then he goes to work at McDonald’s as a kind of social experiment, he begins to see the world anew: Just because he hates small-talk with his co-workers, he discovers that listening to different music doesn’t mean you’re not a human being. His show explores not only his coming out experience but the awkward time before and the self-realization after.

Read our interview with Colgin here.

DEETS: Davidson Auditorium — JSOM 1.118, 800 W. Campbell Road on the UTD Campus, Richardson. Jan 30. 5:30pm. Free. UTDallas.edu/womenscenter

—  Rich Lopez

Takei, Aiken adding gay fabulosity to new “Celebrity Apprentice”

George Takei

I have sincerely admired George Takei ever since 2005 when he publicly came out as a gay man. And I have been a real fan for the last several months, ever since I “liked” his Facebook page and got the chance to see and appreciate his unique sense of humor.

But I am not a big enough fan to watch George in his new gig, because his new gig is being a cast member of the new season of Donald Trump‘s Celebrity Apprentice. And I hate Donald Trump and I hate Celebrity Apprentice way to much to ever watch the show, even for George T. I made myself a promise after listening to Trump’s “presidential campaign” tripe that I would never watch this show, because I never want to do anything that might even remotely put money in his bigoted pockets.

So, love ya George, but I just can’t watch that show.

There will be at least one other gay in the cast to keep George company: Clay Aiken of American Idol and Spamalot fame. And other “gay interest’ cast members are ’80s pop star Debbie Gibson and equal-opportunity-insult comedian Lisa Lampanelli.

I’m not gonna list the whole cast here. You can go over to FoxNews.com to get that (where, by the way, the describe Takei as “Star Wars actor George Takei”). Let it suffice to say that the cast does include Mafia princess Victoria Gotti and Twisted Sister frontman Dee Snider.

—  admin

Gary Floyd, then and now

Gary Lynn Floyd killed a few birds with one stone last night. First, he helped celebrate the Interfaith Peace Chapel’s one-year anniversary. Second, he shot footage for his upcoming reality series slot on Troubadour, TX. Most importantly, though, he reminded us all why we love listening to him sing.

His concert Sunday night, which also served as a release party for his new CD Then+Now, featured Gary on piano, voice miked, singing solo: Songs from his long career, some from his days in Christian music (including his only No. 1 hit as a songwriter), moving up to his current output. He joked that people may still detect a bit of the church in his voice; ain’t that the truth. Listening to Gary is sort of like your own private sermon — he seemed to be connecting directly with me as he sang. (Of course, I was sitting behind his mother, so maybe he was just singing to her.)  But I bet all of the 80 or so attendees felt that same connection. That’s what good singing is all about.

—  Arnold Wayne Jones

Good Christian belle

Gay ally Kristin Chenoweth talks about her new country music CD (she adores Dolly!), queers … and the right way to be a Christian

THE GOSPEL ACCORDING TO KRISTIN | The performer has conquered stage, recording, TV … and uniting gay rights with her faith.

Kristin Chenoweth doesn’t get miffed very easily. But when she does, watch out. Last year, after Newsweek published a commentary on the inability of gay actors to play straight roles, she wrote an extensive letter to the magazine, calling the article “horrendously homophobic.”

But Chenoweth’s allegiance to the gay community goes back to growing up in Oklahoma — a place she returned to for her latest album, Some Lessons Learned, the first of four where the opera-trainer singer fully embraces her country roots.

We had lots to talk about when we caught up with Chenoweth, on a dinner break from shooting her upcoming series, Good Christian Belles. She discussed her history of dating gay men, her opinion on Michele Bachmann’s support of gay conversion clinics … and being a little bit wicked.

— Chris Azzopardi


Dallas Voice: Your character’s name on Good Christian Belles is Cockburn — Carlene Cockburn. Chenoweth: I can’t wait for my family to hear that one. Are you kidding? I was like, “Wait a minute…!” But I just think the most important thing for me as an actress, because of the lines that come out of my mouth, is to just have to speak them and keep going, because they’re so funny and her name is so funny and the whole thing is just so great. I love it.

Does your character have anything in common with April Rhodes, who you play on Glee? Probably not on paper, but they’re both pretty outlandish people. Carlene, though, is the antithesis of April.

You grew up in Oklahoma, so country music is your roots. How is your new album a reflection of that? It’s so funny, because I get asked, “Why a country album now?” But that’s how it all began for me. Of course, why would anyone know that? It’s not something I’ve been talking about a lot, but it’s the music I grew up listening to. One of my biggest influences is Dolly Parton, and when you look at the history of songs in musical theater and in country, they’re both usually great storytellers.

I know just how lucky I am to do this kind of music. Getting to go to Nashville and sing this music that feels like home to me was a real gift, and one that I don’t take lightly.

The song “What Would Dolly Do?” reminds me a lot of Dolly herself. I co-wrote that. [Producer] Bob Ezrin asked, “Who’s had the biggest influence on you country music-wise?” I said, “Dolly, without question.” And he said, “How would she approach it? Let’s think: What would Dolly do?” I said, “Bob, why aren’t we writing that song?”

There’s something about her that I feel very attuned to. There’s only one Dolly. I’m not comparing myself, but I’m just saying her spirit and the way she looks at life is pretty similar to me. And the cover I did of hers [“Change”] is actually a very emotional thing and it reminded me — of course, how could I ever forget? — what an amazing songwriter she is. You know, I didn’t do a lot of covers. I did two covers, one of Carrie [Underwood] and one of Dolly’s, and I just love both of them. I love their music, I love their spirit — everything they stand for.

It makes total sense, because, to me, both you and Dolly epitomize happiness. Oh my god, thank you. That’s the biggest compliment you could give me.

So, being so happy… what pisses you off? Oh, gosh! I don’t really get mad that often. But I’m not going to lie: When I do, there’s a quiet that comes over me that is a little like whoa, and that happens when I don’t feel other people are prepared or doing their job or pulling their weight. I come from a family where my dad came from nothing and worked hard to get where he is, and he said, “Work hard, play hard, Kris,” and I guess that’s kind of been my motto in life. So when I see people squandering opportunities or having a sense of entitlement, that really makes me crazy. Because I don’t understand it. It’s not a world I get.

One thing that does make you upset is homophobic people. I don’t like that, you’re right.

Your letter in response to that Newsweek column said it all. Why was it important to address your feelings on that issue? To be honest, I wasn’t prepared for what was going to happen. I was on Broadway doing Promises, Promises, and I read the article and I actually thought it was pretty irresponsible. I’m not even talking about whether a person agrees with being gay or not, I’m talking about artistry and gay

actors trying to play straight. It just made me mad, because I thought, “Well, I’ve played a prostitute, does that mean I am one? No.” I just thought it was a little bit of a bullying thing, and I honestly prayed about it — no kidding, I prayed about it.

And by the way, I’m a big fan of the magazine, which is why I was so bummed. But I think that they felt bad and hopefully there’s been some discussion about it and some learning, because that’s what we’re here to do on this Earth, to learn our purpose. Well, one of my purposes in this life — since I’m a believer and a Christian — is to help people realize that not every Christian thinks that being gay is a sin.

To reinforce your point, you made out with your Promises, Promises co-star Sean Hayes at the Tonys last year. It might’ve been a little jibe. It might’ve been a little one! Ha!

What was it like to make out with a gay man? Was that your first time? Well, let’s face it, my high school boyfriend is gay, so I don’t think it’s my first time making out with gay men! I bet a lot of women don’t even know they’ve done it! And Sean Hayes is just a darn good kisser, what can I say?

Wait, so you dated a gay man in high school? Yeah, and I’m like, “Well, that’s why we were such a great couple!” He didn’t pleasure me in any way but he helped me pick out my prom dress!

Was he one of the first gay people you knew in Oklahoma? Yeah. I want to tell you something I know about myself: When I was in the second or third grade, I first heard the word “dyke,” and it was in reference to a girl in our school who was very, very tomboyish. I didn’t really understand what the word was, but I knew I didn’t like the way it was said. And for some reason I’ve always been drawn to the person that was alone, and I don’t mean to make me sound like I’m Mother Teresa, because I’m not. But I’ve always been drawn to people who felt left out or different, and maybe it’s because, I too, felt different and unique. People would not think this of me, because there’s this perception of me that, “Oh, life’s been perfect and things have come so easily.”

But let’s face it: My speaking voice is very interesting. Yes, I was a cheerleader but I also wanted to do all the plays, I was in renaissance choir, and, I too, felt a little bit like an outsider. I was always drawn to people who felt that way, too. And sure, some of them were gay and I never did understand — I guess the word is fear.

God made us all equal. He made me short, he made someone gay, he made someone tall — whatever it is, it’s not a sin; it’s how we’re made. And that’s the way I feel about it. It flies in the face of a lot of what Christians believe, but as I’m finding out there’s a lot of Christian people who think the same as me. So that’s my deal, and I think we should not be careful of the unknown but rather accepting and loving of it.

As someone who’s Christian and supports the gay community, how do you feel about the pray-away-the-gay program that Michele Bachmann supports? [Long pause] You know what, you can have your opinion. One of the great things about being in this country is we get to freely say what we believe. I just don’t happen to agree with that. Though I like the “pray” part!

This article appeared in the Dallas Voice print edition September 16, 2011.

—  Michael Stephens

Broken Mould

Queer punk pioneer Bob Mould turned an abusive childhood into a musical movement, but memoir targets hardcore fans

2.5 out of 5 stars
By Bob Mould (with Michael
Azerrad). 2001 (Little, Brown)
$25; 404 pp.

It all starts with “Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star.” It continues with the itsy-bitsy spider, the ABCs and being a little teapot. From there, you embrace whatever your older siblings are listening to until you develop your own musical tastes. Maybe you started with records, moved on to the cassette tapes, CD and now, your iPod is full.

The point is, you’ve never been without your tunes.

But what about the people who make the music you love?

When Mould was born in 1960 in the northernmost end of New York, he entered a family wracked with grief: Just before he was born, Mould’s elder brother died of kidney cancer. He surmises that the timing of his birth resulted in his being a “golden child,” the family peacekeeper who sidestepped his father’s physical and psychological abuse.

“As a child,” he writes, “music was my escape.”

Mould’s father, surprisingly indulgent, bought his son guitars and young Bob taught himself to play chords and create songs. By the time he entered high school, Mould knew that he had to get out of New York and away from his family. He also knew he was gay, which would be a problem in his small hometown.

He applied for and entered college in Minnesota, where he started taking serious guitar lessons and drinking heavily. His frustrations led him to launch a punk rock band that made a notable impact on American indie music.

Named after a children’s game, Hüsker Dü performed nationally and internationally, but Mould muses that perhaps youth was against them. He seemed to have a love-hate relationship with his bandmates, and though he had become the band’s leader, there were resentments and accusations until the band finally split.

HUSKER DON’T | Bob Mould turned his youthful rage and homosexuality into a music career. (Photo by Noah Kalina)

But there were other bands and there were other loves than music, as Mould grew and learned to channel the rage inside him and the anger that volcanoed from it.

“I spent two years rebuilding and reinventing myself,” writes Mould. “Now that I’ve integrated who I am and what I do, I finally feel whole.”

If you remember with fondness the ‘80s, with its angry lyrics and mosh pits, then you’ll love this book. For most readers, though, See a Little Light is going to be a struggle. Mould spends a lot of time on a litany of clubs, recording studios, and locales he played some 30 years ago — which is fine if you were a fellow musician or a rabid, hardcore fan. This part of the book goes on… and on… and on, relentlessness and relatively esoteric in nature.

Admittedly, Mould shines when writing about his personal life but even so, he’s strangely dismissive and abrupt with former loves, bandmates, and even family. I enjoyed the occasional private tale; unfortunately there were not enough.

Overall, See a Little Light is great for Mould fanboys and those were heavy into the punk scene. For most readers, though, this book is way out of tune.

— Terri Schlichenmeyer

This article appeared in the Dallas Voice print edition August 26, 2011.

—  Michael Stephens

Starvoice • 04.29.11

By Jack Fertig


Lesley Gore turns 65 on Monday. Much has changed in music since singer Lesley Gore recorded her biggest hit “It’s My Party” back in 1963. But maybe it was Gore who “changed” the most. The iconic singer came out as lesbian in 2005 and stated she knew in her late teens that she was attracted to women. Now we have to go back and listen to all her lyrics again.



Uranus, newly in Aries, cranks up spontaneous individualism and assertion. The sun is in Taurus, semi-square to Uranus provoking a lot of stubbornness. Don’t challenge others with an uppity, obstinate attitude; look for creative new ways to show loyalty and resilience.


TAURUS  Apr 20-May 20
Life’s tough blows have been piling up, but don’t let it give you piles. Much as people depend on the solid, reliable you, you need to be able to let it out and lean on someone else.

GEMINI  May 21-Jun 20
Your friends are only human. Don’t take disappointments to heart. Cutting off communications is a big mistake, but so is over-talking the problem. A short break may be best.

CANCER  Jun 21-Jul 22
Your friends’ ideas fare too much from the heart, not enough from the brains. Going along with them could hurt your rep and your wallet. Thank them for their ideas and change the subject.

LEO  Jul 23-Aug 22
In your ideal relationship you’re the star married to your agent or manager. That means you can’t always be the boss! Arguments are normal but listening remains more important than speaking.

VIRGO  Aug 23-Sep 22
Novel sex techniques are a blast but require some safety. They also open up a lot of suppressed feelings. How well do you know your partner? Just be sure that he or she can be trusted.

LIBRA  Sep 23-Oct 22
You and your mate have a great time exploring kinky new fun. Anything from silk scarf bondage to cattle prods is open to testing. Slow, careful and easy is the best approach, at first anyway.

SCORPIO  Oct 23-Nov 21
You are part of a team and everyone else is as important as you. As much as your special talents do contribute to the team, cultivate humility as one of those talents.

SAGITTARIUS  Nov 22-Dec 20
Argue about movie, art, sports, anything fun or creative; you’re sure to find amazing new ideas. Keep your mind and ears open and respectful of other notions. Be polite with the idiots.

CAPRICORN  Dec 21-Jan 19
Livening up your home life should be a fun creative challenge, not a painful economic one. Unleash your dark side in planning changes, but not in how you treat housemates.

AQUARIUS  Jan 20-Feb 18
Criticism of family, housemates or your community is surprising in its harshness. If you can’t be kind, give your loved ones a break and look for schmucks who deserve your wrath.

PISCES  Feb 19-Mar 19
Financial surprises work your nerves. You need a break. Try something new and different even if it’s just a quiet stroll in a park or country road you’ve never trod before.

ARIES  Mar 20-Apr 19
The cost of living force some choices in how you unwind. Look ahead 10 years and imagine what friendships, talents and skills you’d like to have developed through your hobbies.

Jack Fertig can be reached at 415-864-8302 or Starjack.com

This article appeared in the Dallas Voice print edition April 29, 2011.

—  Michael Stephens

FEEDBACK: Why I’m supporting Kunkle

Why I’m supporting Kunkle

Thank you for the in-depth expose on the three major mayoral candidates (“Decision in Dallas,” Dallas Voice, April 8).

While there are different opinions regarding the candidates, David Kunkle is my personal choice. I have watched him closely over the last several years and was so impressed with his style of leadership and soft-spoken manner when he was police chief. He went all over this city, listening and getting feedback from not only the GLBT community, but everywhere.

Additionally, he is effective. He may not be the flashiest or most dynamic of the candidates, but he’s a keen thinker and avid reader focused on real world solutions on what works and what doesn’t.

He also appreciates the eclectic aspects of Dallas. That’s an important place to be in my mind, so that we can attract not only Fortune 500 companies but also the small businessman/woman and the budding creative entrepreneurs who want to live in our city.

I don’t know that I necessarily want another CEO as mayor. We hear all the time that government should be run like a business. I think it should not be. Contrary to popular belief today, government is not a business.

Municipal government needs an experienced and competent administrator. In addition to serving as Dallas police chief, David Kunkle also has experience serving as the assistant city manager of Arlington, which will provide him with a skill set from day one that will no doubt serve him well as mayor.

Ron Natinsky and Mike Rawlings both are pleasant gentlemen and they each bring their own “skill set” to the table and there are good people supporting them. But I’m going to be casting my ballot for David Kunkle.

Jay Narey

—  John Wright

Leadership through listening: Rev. Dr.Melvin Woodworth, First United Methodist Church of Tacoma, WA

With about 8 million members in the United States and 3.5 million more in Africa, Asia and Europe, the United Methodist Church is the second largest Protestant denomination in the United States.

Like many denominations, UMC continues to experience painful internal conflict with respect to its treatment of lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) members and clergy.  Being a fairly democratic institution, changes in the denomination’s official stance on LGBT people can only happen at a pace and to a degree reflective of changes in the attitudes of church members and clergy themselves.

As you well know, changing the attitudes of friends, family and community members on LGBT issues is possible but it often requires great patience and a willingness to tell our own stories.  But empowering LGBT-friendly people of faith to come forward and bare witness to their allyship as people of faith also requires something else: the ability to listen.  This is something I learned last week during an interview with Rev. Dr. Melvin Woodworth, pastor of First United Methodist Church in Tacoma, Washington.  

Many people call themselves “pastor”, but I think once you read what he has to say you’ll agree that Rev. Woodworth truly embodies the title.  Please join us after the jump for a wide-ranging conversation touching on an array of topics including civil disobedience within the UMC, listening circles, world church politics, cell phones, colonial legacy, and simply liking people.  Yes believe it or not it’s all LGBT-related!


* Conversation with a straight Presbyterian ally
A note on where LGBT people stand in relation to UMC

The Book of Discipline of The United Methodist Church, the denomination’s book of laws, is largely silent regarding transgender people, although a resolution “Opposition to Homophobia and Heterosexism” was adopted in 2008 which stated in part “Therefore, be it resolved, that The United Methodist Church strengthen its advocacy of the eradication of sexism by opposing all forms of violence or discrimination based on gender, gender identity, sexual practice, or sexual orientation.”  However the denomination has not yet outlined a policy on specific issues like eligibility for membership, marriage or ordination for transgender people.  

While Rev. David Weekly has remained a pastor in good standing despite recently coming out about his FtM transition of 35 years ago, other transgender clergy are not necessarily lovingly supported by the denomination.  For example Drew Phoenix transitioned on the job and was reappointed in 2007 by his bishop to continue leading his congregation of St John’s in Baltimore.  In 2008 however Rev. Phoenix took a voluntary leave of absence from that post and has not returned.  This despite a very supportive congregation which still maintains web pages about “our pastor”.  Other transgender clergy have been pressured to take a leave of absence from the ministry.

The Book of Discipline directly addresses gay and lesbian people and homosexuality, albeit in contradictory passages.  It states that while “all persons are of sacred worth”, when it comes to the ordination of clergy “the practice of homosexuality is incompatible with Christian teaching.”  

Despite the adoption of the “Opposition to Homophobia and Heterosexism” resolution quoted above, the denomination officially condones discrimination against gay and lesbian couples in civil marriage.  The Book of Discipline states “We support laws in civil society that define marriage as the union of one man and one woman.”  However, the UMC’s statement Equal Rights Regardless of Sexual Orientation would seem to leave room for the support of civil unions or domestic partnerships.  Within the church itself, the sacred celebration of gay and lesbian unions is forbidden: “Ceremonies that celebrate homosexual unions shall not be conducted by our ministers and shall not be conducted in our churches.”

Reconciling Ministries Network “is a growing movement of United Methodist individuals, congregations, campus ministries, and other groups working for the full participation of all people in the United Methodist Church.  RMN grew out of Affirmation: United Methodists for Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender Concerns.”  RMN helps lead congregations through the reconciling process and maintains a list of reconciling congregations.  Such a lits is necessary because despite The Book of Discipline‘s statement that all persons are of sacred worth, UMC pastors are still allowed to bar LGBT individuals from membership in their congregations.  

My conversation with Rev. Woodworth

Rev. Woodworth began our conversation by suggesting that he may not be the best person to speak with.  I asked him why.

There are a lot of clergy and laity who really have been intimately tied to the struggle in the United Methodist Church more closely than I have been, who know a whole lot more than I do.  I’m identified as the pastor at the Annual Conference who always is bringing up gay agenda, but I don’t know as much as a lot of people.  (Lurleen’s note: The Annual Conference is the basic regional unit of organization in the UMC.  Rev. Woodworth’s congregation is part of the Pacific Northwest Conference.)

First UMC of Tacoma is an affirming congregation, is that the right term?

In the United Methodist system we call them reconciling congregations. And awful term, but that’s what somebody decided upon.

Did you start that at this congregation?

No, I didn’t.  I’ve never succeeded in helping a congregation through that process.  I’ve been pastor of three congregations that would call themselves reconciling congregations, though one of those was back before that category had been invented.  But they were all reconciling before I got there.  And those that I’ve been appointed to were not reconciling congregations have not become reconciling congregations while I was there.

Was that because you chose not to work on that, or the congregation wasn’t interested?

I’m a very passive kind of a pastor.  I don’t push my agenda.  I walk into a congregation and try and discern where they feel led by God and help them do that well.  I would say in each of the congregations I’ve served, I’ve helped them broaden their thinking in terms of sexual minorities but I haven’t imposed my desire on them that they would be a reconciling congregation.

Do UMC congregations get to interview and choose their own pastor, or are they assigned?

No, we’re appointed by the bishop.  We have a bishop located in Seattle which is in charge of all the United Methodist churches in Washington and northern Idaho – I’d say maybe 250 churches or something like that.  And every year he or she appoints the pastors to the churches that they’ll serve.

So you could be moved any time.

I could be moved any year.  In reality it’s a pretty consultative process.  The bishop has a cabinet of six district superintendents.  The superintendents work with the churches and clergy in their districts, and unless a pastor requests a change or a church requests a change, a pastor is likely to stay put for a long time.  In most of my moves I haven’t asked for a change and the congregations haven’t but there’s been an opening that the Annual Conference would be a good fit for me, and so they’ve asked me to move.  I’ve never refused to take an appointment they’ve offered me.  And theoretically I can’t refuse, but in reality they rarely force somebody into a situation they don’t want to be in.

To me that’s an interesting factor in how the denomination works.

Well it makes it pretty complex, because you get reconciling congregations and ministers who are accepting, and ministers who aren’t accepting, and the cabinet has to ask: now do we want to send a pastor in who doesn’t exactly fit the congregations to help the congregation move in a particular direction, or do we want to give them matching that are going to feel more comfortable?  I’m glad I’m not the bishop!

You’ve been here at First UMC Tacoma for how long?

I’ve been here 3 1/2 years.

And when you got here it was already a reconciling congregation?

Yep, it makes me very happy!


But you said you’ve maybe still helped broadened views a bit?

I’ve certainly encouraged us to grow in the ways in which we live that out.  Since I’ve been here we’ve been much more visibly open to the larger community, in the larger community, developed a very strong relationship with the Rainbow Center which is just a couple blocks away.  When we have functions that are particularly LGBT-friendly we try and get our posters up the gay bars, and try to be in touch with PFLAG and the GSA groups on area campuses and so forth.

The other thing that we did a year and a half ago, in our denomination clergy are not allowed to officiate at gay marriages, and congregations are not allowed to have their buildings used for gay marriages.

Our congregation went through a 6 month process of studying our Book of Discipline, praying, tuning into the spirit of God moving us and concluded that the Book of Discipline requires us to provide ministry equally for all persons but asks us to be inequitable in that regard.  And so we formulated a statement and published it saying that we chose to support the greater law of the Discipline and violate the lesser law.  And so we are on record as encouraging clergy associated with our congregation to do gay marriages and allowing our building to be used for those. (Lurleen’s note: Rev. Woodworth is referring here to holy matrimony, not to the solumnization of a legal marriage.  Washington state law barres clergy from solumnizing legal marriages for gay and lesbian couples because such marriages are proscribed by state law.)

Adopted by the Church Council June 2009

Same Sex Holy Matrimony at First United Methodist Church of Tacoma

As United Methodists we affirm with our Constitution, that all persons are of sacred worth, created in the image of God, in need of the ministry of the Church, and eligible to attend worship, receive our services and upon baptism and declaration of the Christian faith, to become members of our congregation. (1)

As United Methodists we affirm with out Social Principles that sexuality is God’s good gift to all persons, that basic human rights and civil liberties are due all persons and that we are committed to supporting these rights and liberties for all, regardless of sexual orientation.  We support efforts to stop forms of coercion against all persons regardless of sexual orientation. (2,3)

We find these central demands of our constitution and Social Principles to be at irreparable odds with the subordinate disciplinary statute that, “Ceremonies that celebrate homosexual unions shall not be conducted by our ministers and shall not be conducted in our churches.” (4)

Therefore, we of First United Methodist Church of Tacoma pledge our fidelity to the Constitution and Social Principles of the United Methodist Church, committing ourselves to affirming the sacred value of every individual, inviting all persons into fellowship with the Church of Jesus Christ, and offering to each person the full breadth of ministries offered by our congregation.

To fulfill this pledge we establish that it is our policy and practice to share the use of our facility and sanctuary to celebrate relationships of love for couples without regard to sexual orientation.

We support clergy appointed to or relating to our congregation who carry out the solemnization of holy matrimony equally for all persons, regardless of sexual identity in accord with the best theology and values found in the Constitution and Social Principles of the United Methodist Church.  We encourage them to conduct such ceremonies as they feel called to do. (5)


1. The Book of Discipline of the United Methodist Church — 2008 para 4 p. 22

2. Author suggests “gays and lesbians” rather than “All persons regardless of sexual orientation.’

3. The Book of Discipline of the United Methodist Church — 2008 para 162.J p. 111

4. The Book of Discipline of the United Methodist Church — 2008 para 341.6 p. 253

5. We do this knowing that this may involve their being in violation of para 341.6 of the Book of Discipline

Can you tell me more about the 6 month process, and the response of the bishop and the congregation?

The process went very well.  We had a series of 3 weekly listening sessions.  In our listening circles we invite anyone from our congregation who wants to come to sit in a circle, and we go around the circle and let each person express their views.  They’re not to respond to the views of other people.  They’re only to express their personal perspective.

We had a series of scriptures and a series of statements from the Book of Discipline of the United Methodist Church that we threw out and let people respond to.  So we did that 3 consecutive weeks, and I was certain that the congregation would come out pretty much where they did.  I mean there was little doubt in my mind, but I wanted to make sure there was no sense that anyone had been coerced into any position that they were uncomfortable with.  At the end of those 3 weeks we wrote this statement and distributed it to the congregation at large and asked people to spend several months prayerfully considering it.  Then we came back together and had another listening circle.  And then we had it approved by our church council and it became a policy of the congregation.

What was the congregation’s level of participation in this?

It was very good.  Our average attendance is probably around 70 people on a Sunday, so we’re a small congregation, but we were getting probably – I doubt if there was a week that we had fewer than 40 people.  So that’s very good turnout. People were very excited about it.

The conversation never revolved around whether we would do this or not.  The conversation centered around what’s going to happen if we do this and he (Rev. Woodworth) gets in trouble?

But you caught me without my homework finished!  The district superintendent knows about our statement and has had access to it.  I have committed to share it with the bishop and I just haven’t done that in over a year and a half.  I do need to do that.

The district superintendent, how does that person relate to the bishop?

The bishop has 6 superintendents that are his cabinet.  One is assigned to this district, and her office happens to be in this building and she happens to be pretty supportive of what our congregations has done.  But I think she’s a little nervous about it.

In our system, if a clergy person or a congregation does something against the Book of Discipline and somebody is upset by that, they bring a grievance to the superintendent.  Nobody has brought a grievance against me or the congregation.  As far as we know, passing this kind of a statement is not a violation of the Discipline in any way.  Acting on it would be considered a violation of the Discipline and so far, nobody who knows anything about our acting on it has brought a grievance.  And we’ve had lots of people at services.

So the congregation has acted on it then.


This is a friendly interview, so tell me at any time if you don’t want to ‘go there’.

I think I’m out!  I can’t in good conscience perpetuate an injustice.  I can’t get around the injustice of the state law – I don’t have power over that.  But I can get around the injustice of the church law, and I’m doing that.

Who would have the standing to bring a grievance?

Anybody.  You could bring a grievance.  Pastor Phelps from Kansas, a Baptist could bring a grievance against me.  Anybody could bring a grievance.

Has anything similar been done in other congregations, and how has that worked out?

There have been several United Methodist pastors who have done same-sex marriages or unions publicly.  At least two have been removed from the ministry because of that.  There was a very notable case a few years ago in Sacramento where 60 some United Methodist pastors (the “Sacramento 68“) as well as some other pastors officiated at the holy union of two women.

They were making a little bit of a statement?

It was very much a statement.  Charges were brought against them, and I don’t know the details too precisely, but in our system when a grievance is filed if it looks like it has merit it’s given to a committee on investigation. That’s like a grand jury.  And if the committee on investigation decides there’s enough evidence to bring charges, if reconciliation between the opposing parties can’t be found then it goes to a trial.

For whatever reason, the Annual Conference in California that had responsibility for that did not take it to trial, did not bring charges against any of those clergy.  That was a controversial act and it has stood.  I believe it was appealed to the judicial council which is the supreme court of the church.  I don’t remember the details, but Don Fado was the primary pastor who pulled together that event.

You were asking about other congregations doing similar things.  There have just been two congregations on the east coast — one is Foundry United Methodist Church in Washington, D.C. and I don’t remember off the top of my head the other one — have come out with statements similar to this very publicly, and have done that with the understanding that they would be brought up on charges and it would go to a church court.

As our congregation was involved in this process I made e-mail contact with a number of reconciling congregations in different parts of the country, particularly California because that was at that delightful time when marriage was legal for a moment.  Which put United Methodist pastors in a horribly awkward position.  Here are unions that are legal in the state of California and our Discipline says they can’t celebrate them.  Come on!

So I was in contact with a number of people including Foundry United Methodist as we went through this and shared with some of those our statement after we finished it.  But it’s just been a few months since Foundry and this other church came out with their statements and as far as I know nobody has brought any charges up to this point.

That really does put clergy in a very precarious position.

Terrible position.

Does it also put members of the congregation who celebrate their marriages in the church in a similar position?  Are they at risk of being defellowshipped?

Probably not.  The Discipline doesn’t say couples can’t get married in the church.  It says the pastor can’t do it and it can’t happen in the church.  I suppose if someone really wanted to stretch it they could try and bring charges against the couple, but the pastor’s the most vulnerable.

In our Annual Conference, there’s a little piece of me that would like to be brought up on charges.  Most of me does not want that, at all.  But a little piece of me does because in our Annual Conference I can see several possibilities.  One possibility would be that similar to the case in California someone would bring a grievance and the committee on investigation would conclude it didn’t justify a trial.  What I almost would like to see happen would be to have it go to a trial and have me found guilty.  Because then the trial court is responsible for deciding what response they will give.  And there is no required response.  So they could say, “yes he’s guilty and we’re going to do nothing.”

There’s another Annual Conference I’ve heard of that if rumor is correct passed a piece of legislation a number of years ago saying that the Discipline says that pastors can’t do same-sex marriages, the clergy of the Annual Conference is responsible for enforcing any matters concerning our clergy, and so we suggest that if any clergy in our Annual Conference are found guilty of this, they should be suspended from the ministerial orders for a period of 24 hours.  Which is basically saying, you do one of these we’re going to make you take a day off, so there!

I see it as a very real possibility in our Annual Conference that either a person would not be brought to trial, or if they were brought to trial they would be found not guilty, or if they were found guilty that there would be no punishment imposed.

Would such a decision have the weight of precedent?

We don’t do as much with precedence in the United Methodist Church as the civil courts do, but it certainly does add some weight to that position.  What it would do is send huge ripples through the whole denomination and those who are opposed to same-sex marriage would be at our next General Conference trying to revise the Book of Discipline to have forced removal from ministry or something else imposed.  It would be fun to see what happened.

But at this point no one that I know of has come up with a statement like this and then had that tried in the courts of the church in any way.


In preparation for this interview it was easy to find references to homosexuality in the Book of Discipline but not to gender identity or expression.  Where do transgender people stand in relation to the denomination?

The United Methodist Church has a Book of Discipline that is revised every 4 years when we have our General Conference, which is a global gathering.  We were the first, I think, major Protestant denomination to deal with homosexuality in a major way after Stonewall, which changed the whole universe.  In 1972 we put in the schizophrenic language that homosexuals are of sacred worth and deserving of the ministry the church.  And we also put in the language that the practice of homosexuality is incompatible with Christian teaching.  And we haven’t been able to figure out how to live with those two statements since then.

Because we got into the issue earlier than some of the other denominations, we may be the last ones to get out of it.  Because what we did is we polarized our denomination so much that we’re really conflicted.  Terribly conflicted.  But because we function every 4 years, it’s common for us to be behind everybody else.

With transgender issues, I don’t think that has ever been a major issue at General Conference.  The case in Baltimore (concerning Rev. Drew Phoenix, a pastor who transitioned on the job) was the first time that I’m aware of that the church really had to question it.  We haven’t passed any legislation at General Conference that clarifies what our position is.  And I think that is going to test the church in the extreme.

In our congregation we have at least 3 transgender persons, and I think more.  I don’t ask people those sorts of things, so I only know those who’ve talked to me.  We’ve had others attend, and the congregation in general is pretty comfortable with transgender persons being here.

Where from a legal point of view I think it will become very problematic for the denomination is, we say that homosexuals cannot be ordained clergy and serve churches in our denomination.  Is a transgender person their birth gender or their assumed gender?  If it’s their assumed gender and they’re in a relationship with a person of their birth gender, then is that heterosexual or is that homosexual?  We haven’t worked out the language and the theoretical categories to deal with that.  It’s going to be a real interesting challenge.

So at the moment for transgender clergy is it up to the bishop whether they can serve?

I would say that each Annual Conference’s bishop will have to decide how to respond to it.  As far as I know we only have the one case to look at.  And in that case the clergy person was not removed from ministry.  

In our system there are several kinds of leaves of absence.  There’s a voluntary leave of absence, and in our Annual Conference we have at least 3 clergy that are out of the closet that are fully ordained United Methodist clergy.  One is serving a church, two are on leave.  I think in both of those cases the clergy requested to be on leave, but the request is of course linked to the stress and trials of being in an inhospitable environment.  There’s voluntary leave, there’s involuntary leave and a bishop or Annual Conference can’t put a pastor on involuntary leave without having a reason for doing that and going through a due process of some sort.  So I don’t know what the situation there is.

Your congregation was already “there” on so many things, so you’ve never had to deal with the hysterical “eek there’s a man in a dress in the bathroom” sort of thing?

One of the nice things about this building is we just moved in 2 1/2 years ago, and we have private restrooms on each of the floors that the congregation uses.  And so it’s real easy for anyone that has any questions about how they’d be received to find a restroom where that’s not going to be an issue.

Or also someone who is afraid of going into a restroom knowing that there are transgender people in the congregation could segregate themselves in a private restroom if they want to.

That’s right.  One of the things that some congregations have done is get away from the group restroom thing all together.  It’s becoming increasingly common to simply have solitary use restrooms and just avoid all of that stuff for everybody.  But no, I have never had that be an issue in one of my congregations.


What’s your take on the international dynamic going on now in the UMC?  I’ve read that American membership is down, African membership is up and that the African congregations tend to be more conservative on matters of sexuality and sexual minorities and that that was a factor in the last General Conference.  Do these power dynamics affect the willingness of American congregations or Annual Conferences to take more moderate positions on social issues?

The United Methodist Church has not done a graceful job of transitioning from the colonial period to the 21st century.  We had what we called Central Conferences that were different than Annual Conferences.  They had a little more latitude in how they structured and administered themselves, and they did not have equal representation at our General Conference.  Our African conferences were all Central Conferences, and they did not get representation proportionate to the number of members in relationship to the U.S. church.  

God has an amazing sense of humor and can use our sins against us.  The most hierarchical, legalistic, racist, homophobic parts of our society worked hard to maintain the Central Conference system and to inflict an injustice on the people of the Third World.  And then along came the gay issue and that same group of people saw that they were losing control of the gay issues.  

So 6 or 7 years ago at a General Conference they implemented a plan for incrementally giving more equitable representation to the Third World.  The Third World tends to be conservative on sexual issues, and so they thought this would settle the gay issue — we’ll just get all those Africans to come in here and vote against gay folks.  

As soon as they did that, the part of me that wants justice for sexual minorities grieved, but the part of me that wants justice for the Third World rejoiced.  Because the Third World is much more liberal than (the hierarchical, legalistic, racist, homophobic) segment of American Methodism, and I thought that group will have lost every other issue except the gay issue.  They’ll have sold everything else to get this one issue!  

That is fascinating.  What issues are they more liberal on?

Mostly economic justice, world trade, employment rights.  In Korea they have two sets of laws.  They have one set of laws for the country and one set of laws for these little enclaves of U.S. businesses that are allowed to set up and not have fair labor practices under Korean standards.  What?!  The United States, the ‘champion of the people’…I could go on and on forever.

So the Methodist churches in places like that are really pushing for social justice, is that what you’re saying?

For economic justice, definitely.

And so we came to the last General Conference in 2008 with people afraid that the increased African representation was going to grossly skew the vote on the gay issue.  Those who advocated for retaining the current language had, for a couple of General Conferences, offered free breakfasts to General Conference delegates who wanted a free breakfast.  And most of your Third World delegates are living on a shoestring and they’ll take a free breakfast if they can get one.  That became an opportunity to give them a pep talk on how to vote.

What happened was the bishops became aware of this and decided this wasn’t a good plan.  So the bishops arranged for a lot of the African delegates to be housed in the same hotel with them and to get breakfast with their housing.  Suddenly the conservatives didn’t have access to this lobbying opportunity, so they passed out free cell phones.  And started sending messages to the recipients telling them how to vote.

Well you know, Africans aren’t as dumb as Americans would like to think they are.  So despite the fact that there was much larger African representation at the General Conference, the vote for changing the language in the Discipline to something more accepting was even closer than it had been at the previous General Conference.

At every General Conference since 1972 there has been legislation to remove the “incompatible with Christian teaching” language, and every General Conference it’s come closer and closer.  

I presume some of the change in the vote is due to changing attitudes in American congregations too, but you’re saying the African congregations as well?

The African congregations did not make the difference that people expected.  Now at our next General Conference there’s going to be an even bigger shift towards African representation.  And it may make a difference.  The conservatives in the U.S. are working very hard and in Africa some very ugly stuff is going on there.  Homosexuality may become a capitol crime on some countries like Uganda.  There are places in Africa where homosexuals are killed currently, and that would not be a huge shift in some areas.

But the conversation is going on in Africa.  I was in the Democratic Republic of Congo in 2001 and talked about homosexuality to a friend of mine there who was in his early 30s.  I brought the subject up — he really didn’t want to talk about it.  It doesn’t exist, it isn’t excepted.  When I was back and talked with him in 2005 he was a student at Africa University in Zimbabwe, and he said it was quite a topic on campus.  There was a lot of discussion on it.  And when I was there in 2007 and talked to him, he was even able to share that in his own thinking he’s weighing whether this is acceptable in the eyes of God.  

So Africans are having the same conversations Americans are.  They’re a little bit behind chronologically, but my guess would be that they may make the transition faster than Americans did because in general they have a better developed sense of justice.  The whole experiences in Uganda, in Rwanda, in South Africa — they’re really leading the world in terms of thinking about how to live out justice and how to get past one’s history.

Ugandan backers of the proposed Anti-Homosexuality Bill falsely claim that homosexuality is a colonial import.  And these are Christians, whose religion is itself an import.  I don’t hear anyone publicly addressing the pot calling the kettle black.

There are those in the Third World who get really angry with the church, and I think rightfully so in that the vitriolic condemnation of homosexuality was largely a Western import.  And now all of a sudden we’ve changed our mind and we expect them to change their mind along with us, and they’re saying “wait, who said we wanted to dance the Foxtrot, we’re really into the Watutsi”.  There is some self-conscious awareness of the fact that they’re getting jerked around.  

One of the moves in the United Methodist church which I think may be a healthy one, is that there’s talk about loosening up our Book of Discipline so that there can be regional differences.  So that the African church can be the African church different from the way the American church is the American church.  It’s kind of re-instituting what we did with Central Conferences.  We always allowed them a flexibility we didn’t allow the Anglo-American conferences.  It might be a good thing to implement where there can be more regional difference.

Might that be instituted at the next General Conference?

Not likely at the next General Conference.  I’m hoping we eliminate the bad language at the next General Conference.

You think that’s doable?

If it weren’t for the increased Third World representation I would think it would be.  Well, and there’s another factor.  Allocation of representation at General Conference is based on membership, and the western and northeastern United States have declining membership.  Which means we’re going to have fewer representatives.  Our Annual Conference used to send I think 5 clergy and 5 lay delegates, and now we’re down to 2 or something.  That’s been over several decades but we’ve really been cut.  It means the more liberal parts of the denomination have less representation.  I don’t know how that will affect the vote.

But the southeastern U.S. which has been most adamant about keeping that language has been transitioning like everyone else has.  They’re becoming much more accepting.  A lot of the southeastern bishops made the shift a decade or two ago.  More and more of the clergy are.  Just how long will it take…

So now is the system fully democratic in terms of the Third World churches being able to send representative numbers of delegates?

I think that in 2012 it’ll be fully equal — I’ve never looked at the equalization plan — which should give lots of extra votes to particularly Liberia.  The Methodist Church in Liberia has been growing like crazy.  The Democratic Republic of Congo also has a huge membership.


What haven’t we talked about that we should talk about?

I think that early in the movement for justice, we made some mistakes.  We pushed too hard in the wrong directions.  We pushed legislatively within the United Methodist Church.  And it may be that we never could have gotten the social push without the political push.  The political push opened the conversation.

But where I see lives being changed over and over and over again is in interpersonal conversations.  Before Stonewall nobody talked about homosexuality in the church.  After Stonewall somebody had to talk about it.

I had an experience in the church a number of years ago.  I was following a pastor who was fairly rabidly anti-gay.  Right after I got appointed there I was asked by the head of the United Methodist Women to come speak to the women at her home about homosexuality.  And I thought, oh boy am I in trouble now!

Sometimes I listen to the Spirit of God and it always tells me to shut up, and when I follow that advice it’s always good advice.  I went to that group of 14 or 16 women, and instead of giving them my spiel on homosexuality and the scripture and all of this stuff, I asked them 3 questions, and we went around the circle.

First, when did you first hear about homosexuality?  What is your first memory of that as a subject?  Secondly, who was the first gay person that you knew?  And third, who is the gay person who’s been closest to you in your lifetime?

So it was very personal.

It was astonishing.  Everybody knew that this one woman in the group has a niece who was a lesbian, and she loved her niece who was a lesbian. And everybody kinda, oh poor so and so, she lives with this burden.  But by the time we were through everybody in the circle had shared somebody who was very close to them.  All but one — there was one woman who as far as she knew didn’t know a gay person and never had.  But everybody else in the room had known gay people, and every one of them had somebody who was emotionally important to them who was gay.

And so as we left that room, these people suddenly knew they could talk to each other.  They could own up to who they were, there were other people who liked gay folks too.  Holy moley does that change your congregation in a hurry!  

As far as they knew going into the meeting all they knew was the topic was homosexuality and they thought I was going to try and convince them.  And if I’d tried to convince them they probably all would have gotten rigid and I would have been ridden out of town on a rail.  But when it was their story, and their friends’ story, it really made a huge difference.  That’s why in the United Methodist Reconciling Ministries Network we’re talking about telling our story.  Just encouraging people to be more out.  Gay people be more out.  Gay parents be more out.  Gay friends be more out.

I’ve always within my first couple of months at a new church made sure that the terms gay or lesbian or homosexual made it into my sermons a couple times. It was a way of saying to people, I know these words, if you’ve got an agenda come talk to me now.  And I usually smoked out gay folks pretty quickly.  “You mentioned thus and so, how do you feel about that?”.  So for my clergy friends who say “How can you know all these gay folks?  I don’t have any gay folks in my church” I say, you don’t offer them the opportunity to be themselves.  If you give them a chance, you’ll find them.

I really think if we’d spent more time with the story telling early on and less time with the legislation it would have been an easier transition.

When you’re saying “early on”, when do you mean?

In 1975 I presented legislation for full membership rights, full ordination rights, marriage rights for gay folks.

You were ahead of your time!

That’s what I’m told.

How did you get there personally?

Who knows.  I was raised by some truly wonderful parents who just taught me to like people.  And I’ve always just sort of liked people.  So I had a friend in high school who everyone said was queer, but you know I really liked him.  I got to college and I had friends who were gay and lesbian.  I just sort of liked them.  Then I found out I wasn’t supposed to like them.

As soon as I was out of seminary I got appointed to Capitol Hill United Methodist in Seattle (Lurleen’s note: Capitol Hill is Seattle’s gayborhood.) which at that point was sharing its building with Metropolitan Community Church.  So I was working with the gay counseling center and the gay community center and the womens coffee club coven and all of those great groups.  Lesbian Resource Center.

In seminary I needed to choose one of three case studies to do an analysis of.  One of the three that was presented was a congregation trying to decide whether to share their building with a Metorpolitan Community Church.  Since I knew at that point I was going to be appointed to Capitol Hill I though, this is a natural!  I studied the scripture and I studied all of that stuff and could find nothing in scripture that led me to think that God related to gay folks differently than anybody else.  So I went to Capitol Hill and I treated the folks there like I treated anybody else, and it worked.  

In 1972 I went to the General Conference of our church in Atlanta and that’s when they passed the really awful language.  I met Gene Leggett from southwest Texas who had been removed from Methodist ministry when he came out of the closet.  He and the gay caucus were there trying to get some pro-gay language in.  It was in response to that that we got the negative stuff.  

Hating anybody has just never made sense to me.  It doesn’t do good things to my mind.  It doesn’t do good things to my body.  It doesn’t do good things to my relationships.

So in 1975 we were preparing to go to this 1976 General Conference and so I presented legislation to our Annual Conference for rights of membership, ordination and marriage.  And it didn’t pass.  But I’ve presented it a number of times since then.  Not every 4 years, but most of them.  Each General Conference it’s been closer.  It was very close the last time.

I’ve known for 20 years that the United States has made the shift.  once you get Will & Grace on television and advertising — the thing that first tipped me off that we’d made the transition was when I started seeing t.v. ads for gay couples.  I thought, when we’re marketing to them, they’re in.  It’s a question of how long is it going to take the rest of us to figure out they’re in.  So I have great hopes for the 2012 General Conference.

It has become increasingly difficult for me to serve any church where I thought any member of my family would not be welcome.  So when they asked me to come to Tacoma I was a very happy camper.  Never served a church that doesn’t have gay or lesbian members.

One more question.  I’m just curious how your congregation responded to Referendum 71 or other LGBT legislation.

The phone bank was in this building!  We have what we call the Micah Project which is our peace and justice group.  The woman who was our director of the Micah Project at that point was a major organizer for R-71.  We had a rally against Prop 8.  I’m involved in the Religious Coalition for Equality that has a meeting later this month.  I don’t know how many we’ll get from the congregation, but we’ll probably have a few there.

So the congregation sees working on these issues as something they come to from their faith?  Their social justice calling?

Absolutely.  What part of “love your neighbor” do people not understand?  It’s pretty simple.  John Wesley the founder of Methodism believed that love was the core of God, that all of the little things that divide us are peripheral.  The unconditional, unquenchable love of God for human beings was at the core of his faith.  This congregation I think does a good job of living that out.
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